Maintenance Working Group Meeting (2024-02-15 08:36 GMT-5) - Transcript

Attendees

Adolfo Brandes, Awais Qureshi, Brian Mesick, Feanil Patel, Feanil Patel's Presentation, Felipe Montoya, Jeremy Ristau, Kyle McCormick, Maria Grimaldi, Michelle Philbrick, Piotr Surowiec, Robert Raposa, Tim Krones, Xavier Antoviaque, Xavier's OtterPilot, Yagnesh nayi

Transcript

This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.

Feanil Patel: Okay, everybody Feel free to add yourself to the meeting notes. Thank you for posting them Felipe.

Feanil Patel: Real quick. Just go over the tubes from last time and then I want to talk python upgrade and maintainers so Robert and actually let me share my

Feanil Patel: okay.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, Robert. did you get a chance to look into this just issue to help with some of the testing for the front end stuff. We were running into last time.

Feanil Patel: You muted.

Robert Raposa: Of course I am. nothing Yeah, so I have given this some thought and would like to have additional conversation either here or elsewhere about sort of more generally.

Robert Raposa: how we Remediate things that we think or parts of the platform that we feel. Should be plugins, but are not because they were created either.

Robert Raposa: not as a plugin when they should have or created before plugins existed and I've got some different thoughts around it, but I don't have

Robert Raposa: it requires some conversation. I know.

Feanil Patel: Do I think the right person to follow up for that is going to be Adolfo and Brian Smith on the working group side. do you want to talk to them about this?

Robert Raposa: so I think this applies more generally right because it could affect unit tests it could affect.

Feanil Patel: you're talking more like the general problem of Having tests that are specific to features only enabled to you in this case and…

Robert Raposa: Okay.

Feanil Patel: how to manage that.

Robert Raposa: right and I'm stating it more like code that we discovered that we now think should be a plug-in and shouldn't be, more generally and what's the remediation plan for that and are there ways to designate that area so that there's a flaky test process but instead there's a remediating non plug-in process where you can just Remove a test.

Feanil Patel: Okay.

Robert Raposa: It feels more. General to me and there's also the specific question that you have right now for a specific test on a specific PR.

Feanil Patel: right

Robert Raposa: that I don't think I have that link. So if you could also share that then we can figure out hey, what's the really short-term plan on this particular issue?

Feanil Patel: Adolfo, can you share that with Robert?

Adolfo Brandes: Apologies. What exactly are you asking for?

Feanil Patel: He's asking for the links to the last time we discussed this problem where some of the testing was in some of the Gest test related to the video page. I think it was in. A studio authoring MFE were specific and…

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah.

Feanil Patel: you guys I think had ended up just planning it a disable them and I think Robert is looking for a link to what tests got disabled and where so that he can follow up on the two you said.

Adolfo Brandes: Okay. I don't think we disabled anything yet, but I can totally dig up.

Feanil Patel: Okay.

Adolfo Brandes: What a failure was. I don't have it right now.

Feanil Patel: Okay, yeah.

Adolfo Brandes: It's on Brian Smith that actually found the exact problem.

Feanil Patel: Yeah.

Adolfo Brandes: So I'll reach out to him.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, so I think Robert if you and adolfo's and coordinate on the sort of that the Tactical thing I'll put in here what we should do as a moist strategic conversation. I suspect with you and Jeremy having to leave in 20 minutes that we should probably just have it next time. So I'll put it on the agenda for next time.

Robert Raposa: and yeah, adolfoot when you reach out if you get ping Jeremy and myself Thanks.

Feanil Patel: awesome All…

Adolfo Brandes: Sure thing.

Feanil Patel: Let's see. What else we got. Jeremy assumed this reviewing to you upgrade process and calms the thing you're still sort of actively doing. that's like a big process Dock at the moment.

00:05:00

Jeremy Ristau: Yeah, and I think something tactical that is the movement of the scanning tool out into the open. So there's those small things that will notice as we do a larger review and we'll continue to have small changes like that.

Feanil Patel: Yeah. That sounds good.

Jeremy Ristau: Yeah. You're right. it's gonna be to do item for a while probably. Yeah.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, if it makes sense, if it's a thing that you have and shouldn't be just like a thing we talk about every week. It's and totally okay with checking that checkbox as you've got it on your plate if it's helpful to have here so that we can check in about what the changes have been and what the Delta is I can leave it here. just do and it's a Wiki so you can check it or not. This is just a summary of thing.

Jeremy Ristau: yeah, yeah, but Let's keep that for another week or two and if the updates start falling off, then we can check it out. Thanks.

Feanil Patel: That answered. Yeah, the other thing I think in that space that I would mention is I think historically I don't know if there has been a space where we could coordinate with the RV bomb team on the open edx Slack. So if that's the thing that we could sort of improve and have I don't know if the best spaces I know they join the WG maintenance group and if that's the place where we should talk with them that's totally fine answer. But if not…

Jeremy Ristau: Yep.

Feanil Patel: if they want their own slack Channel or something for sort of reduction of noise Etc. That's a open question from my side for you guys to think about

Jeremy Ristau: Okay.

Robert Raposa: and one process question is there was a test for Jeremy and myself about the

Robert Raposa: Getting the upgrade tests or added or working with rbbum, and I checked it off like you want us to check out things to not talk about should I so that we can acknowledge?

Feanil Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Feanil Patel: I will figure out if there's a way for me to see all to get a summary of what's check so we can at least talk through it. But definitely feel free to check off things that you've done. I can also make this. Meeting notes available earlier than 18 hours before and that way as you check things off. If you want to make a note in the next meeting notes of accomplishments or whatever. We can just sort of talk through that here as well.

Robert Raposa: Yeah.

Feanil Patel: That probably is the easiest way to do it in that way if people want to sort of have it running once when I put the recording and the transcript up in this one, I'll just immediately create the next one at the same time. So that's available.

Robert Raposa: So yeah, I guess that's a discussion topic or not of RV bombers in action on creating the test message disease for three. 12

Feanil Patel: Yeah, I think let's just call it a decision that if you check the thing off you should put it on the accomplishments section of the next meeting. And that section will exist moving forward.

Feanil Patel: cool It's next. Yeah, because I think the other things I'm gonna call out is Felipe and I had been talking about commerce and about various repos that edgy next would be interested in and he did send me a list that is now integrated into the spreadsheet that I've shared a couple of times before of the priorities from the maintenance side. So as we figure out sort of where all the interest line what it makes sense and how to split things I think we'll move forward on some things Jeremy and I've been talking about their sort of the interest that to you has and where they're going to be focusing and that's also in that spreadsheet now I know that open craft is also working on their own internal priorities. So if it makes sense for me to integrate that into the spreadsheet at some point, let me know and I can do that. So it's all in one place for everybody to see

Xavier Antoviaque: Yep, that could actually be a good idea. It might be worth thinking with Brian on this because he's actively working on it lately.

Feanil Patel: Yeah.

Xavier Antoviaque: But yeah, I think we have a first version that is not completely stable,…

Feanil Patel: Yeah.

Xavier Antoviaque: but it's starting to get there. So

Feanil Patel: Yeah, I think last I saw he was waiting on a comment from you to have reviewed through it. So if you've done that, then I can populate it happy to take that as one. Okay.

Xavier Antoviaque: I've done that. So maybe just give him the occasion to address that.

Feanil Patel: I'll check in with him and then I'll pull it over. Yeah. That sounds good. Okay. awesome

Robert Raposa: Just to double check your spreadsheet is currently the source of Truth for the community until that gets moved to but else

Feanil Patel: Yeah. Yeah, so part of what's in my spreadsheet and we just pull it up here. Is a part of what's in my spreadsheet is the eventual actual source of Truth with it, which is what's in the catalog info. So until that column is actually filled out for a particular row as far as I'm concerned people are making promises but nobody's actually followed through so that's the thing that is going to be the source of Truth moving forward and this is all just a way to get to the point where that's the place we're following.

00:10:00

Jeremy Ristau: I did make a few I didn't edit this because I don't have edit access, but I added it if you hover over the course authoring I added some alignment with the ones that to you is going to it's gonna continue to take or to take and so I think by the end of the week, I'll update the yaml files for those specific ones.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, and I think I didn't before this meeting but I will probably just update that column from the data and GitHub before this meeting in the future. That we can sort of have it up to date weekly at least.

Jeremy Ristau: Yeah be great.

Jeremy Ristau: And I did all of the ones marked to you interested. I pinged a couple other people as well to finish up with that same practice and hopefully we'll have all of those updated before this next meeting.

Feanil Patel: Cool, Michelle before what's up?

Michelle Philbrick: Yeah, thank you Jeremy for that. I was just wondering along those same lines a couple questions. One of them would be will in theory the other. Two you teams that are still going to continue to maintain repo should be answering finial and this will be updated with that, correct? So

Michelle Philbrick: but I guess I'm just confused on which teams are still reviewing which teams might not be. So I'm wondering if that information exists somewhere because right now Tim and I are just sort of in a gray area with triage where we're not sure.

Michelle Philbrick: I know we're working on the source of truth right now. But I know for me it's a little difficult to know if I still should be pinging to you team first or I need to just go to a cc. So I'm just curious if we're waiting for the rest of the teams to respond or if there's somewhere that lists the teams that are currently still reviewing.

Feanil Patel: So Michelle, I'm gonna try to take this in Jeremy. Correct me where I'm wrong, which is I think that from our perspective if the catalog info here does not include it to you team assume that cc's are reviewing it unless the state the status in this spreadsheet changes. So for any o

Michelle Philbrick: Okay.

Feanil Patel: where there isn't a to you team already assume that CC should review it and…

Michelle Philbrick: Yep.

Feanil Patel: if there isn't the CC then razor flag and we can figure out what to do.

Michelle Philbrick: okay, and so we shouldn't be looking at that edx repo ownership sheet anymore, Okay, okay.

Feanil Patel: No, no use this for now, and eventually we'll have a sort of better answer longer term. But this considered this the source of Truth moving forward for now and for attics platform go to cc's first and if we'll get to sort of more complex ownership and edx platform as we move forward.

Feanil Patel: Felipe go for it. Sorry I cut you off.

Felipe Montoya: Yeah, All And so this is great and I hope that as long as they had only invoking some blood updated more frequently, then it should be the source of fruit as a contributor to a rainbow where I'm not a cc. And I should be able to see that I know who to talk review, but that's much easier said when there is a user so if I take any of these there that says user-final I know I should says a group band words. What should be the procedure their headache should I Target a bankwards? It would that be a team that it's politically available to talk or I don't know will be the list of people from that team will be based in backstage so that we can print there and

Feanil Patel: Yeah, so if you do go and backstage and you click on that group on a repo it will actually show you who all is in that group so you can see that there but just in terms of expectation setting I think the person you put as the owner in catalog info you should be able to tag them on reviews and they should be responsive to reviews are the expectations as a part of the maintenance sort of like elap right just to be clear if there's a name here that those people should be respoive. So whatever group this is this should be a group that within a reasonable amount of time

00:15:00

Felipe Montoya: That's good that brilliant some of the teams were not public teams before. I don't know if they are now, but you couldn't do that. So we should.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, I think the tagging The SLA is one week for maintenance. That's right. Yeah for the teams. If they aren't public we can make them public moving forward in some cases. The issue is not that they're not public but with github's tagging for review. Feature that team has to be explicitly a team on as a collaborator on that repo and that's not true for all of these because historically there's been a single Legacy to you team that gave to you Engineers access. We're moving towards these team being the teams that not necessarily give access but are meant to be for reviewing and so we'll make sure that these teams are automatically added with at least read rights on the repos that they own so that there will be taggable in reviews automatically and that's

Feanil Patel: Yeah, yeah exactly open a ticket for now if you find any discrepancies, but eventually my thought is that we will just automate it so that if whatever the team is that's in catalog info on master or main that team will automatically get read access to that repo so that they can be easily tagged on everything.

Feanil Patel: Tim

Tim Krones: Yeah, just to confirm so this column in the spreadsheet it doesn't contain any historical info about ownership. Did I understand that correctly? Because we had two you teams owning a lot of repositories before but that's not necessarily chewing any longer. So I was just wondering I wanted just to confirm that point.

Feanil Patel: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. So yeah, this doesn't have sort of historic who used to own this here. The nice thing is eventually because this data is coming from file that's in the git repo. We will be able to look at that. If we need to know sort of the provenance and who has owned this thing in the past, we'll be able to just look at the history of block file.

Tim Krones: Okay.

Feanil Patel: But yeah this repository is sort of like this was my attempt at essentially starting from scratch of let's just figure out who actually can do things rather…

Tim Krones: Great.

Feanil Patel: who owns things but hasn't been able to actually make reviews happen Etc. so Yeah.

Tim Krones: All right. Thanks.

Feanil Patel: Okay, it's moving back. So for the 312 tickets, we're gonna talk about that in a little bit. So I'll just get to that then Kyle for the three nine live SAS stuff. Did you take it that up for yourself somewhere or is this the reminder that you should still look into that? I still need to do that. and then Adolfo, I think you were heading up sort of the node

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah, basically same thing. I haven't gotten around to that yet. but with Carnival and all

Feanil Patel: Okay.

Feanil Patel: Yeah. Yeah for those who don't know is Carnival in Brazil. So Adolfo had to sequester at home to not get attacked by.

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah, yeah, basically.

Feanil Patel: sparkles in the streets

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah.

Feanil Patel: So yeah, that sounds good o. Yeah, if you can get it before the next meeting, I think that would be super helpful.

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah, totally. No. Yeah, so we should totally get on that. So I will.

Feanil Patel: Yeah. Okay, awesome. So.

Robert Raposa: Yeah, I also had an action item to which I haven't done yet to follow up on a 2u process around reverting. Is that something you want to track here or you want to just forget about it and just let me okay.

Feanil Patel: If you've got it, I think that until you want to bring something back to here. You don't have to track it here. All…

Robert Raposa: That's good.

Feanil Patel: So real quick the python 311 312 and I think what we're doing right now is we're starting we're aiming for three twelve.

Feanil Patel: As the python upgrade and thank you to Robert and Jeremy and the urban team they're going to be one of the things that we're doing since not everything has maintenance is that they're going to be creating pull requests across everything to do that initial sort of set up top Pi bomb talks change like GitHub workflow update and they're going to sort of create the pull request across everything. I think they're skipping the owned repos because we've already started on upgrading those internally.

00:20:00

Feanil Patel: but

Feanil Patel: once those PRS exist, I think anybody who has CC on a repo should feel empowered to review and if it makes sense merge those and release them so that we can get all of our dependencies up to date as quickly as possible. So I think it's easy for them to create that and they'll be able to review as much as they can. But any maintenance for any repos or any CC's on any repo should feel empowered to go in and start merging things that make sense to you. yeah, and it will drop Django three to testing when they do that. So that's just some cleanup for the three two to four two upgrade that's gonna go in at the same time. So don't be surprised if you see it.

Robert Raposa: And so one I think related question that came up is the maintenance board. What would it be possible to filter to add an Oracle and…

Feanil Patel: Yeah.

Robert Raposa: open that x filter to all the main tabs and then have other orgs be able to set up their own tab that actually includes open at X and their or…

Feanil Patel: yeah, as you want to be able to track sort of like your own org maintenance along with I mean Some of the problems with that is the one we already ran into Robert,…

Robert Raposa: if they wish. so that we're gonna

Feanil Patel: which is that when you put tickets from other orgs on that board even as admin I can't remove them. And I can't see who is the owner. historically there's only been one owner. So it was easy to pinpoint who it might be. But let's say edgy next also started tracking their maintenance tickets on the same board. I wouldn't be able to tell who owns this ticket and I would have to tag everybody which is not ideal

Robert Raposa: You can't see anything you would.

Feanil Patel: I could see not there is a ticket here was all that the ticket said.

Robert Raposa: Got it. All right. I will read rethink. What this plan is? I don't know if anyone knows about a way to have. some other project board via super set of a board and automatically get whatever changes are happening on the different board. anyway

Feanil Patel: Yeah, it's not automation. I'm aware of but yeah, I think that's the probably correct direction which is if there's some tooling to pull the open maintenance board, which is public at X ones that you guys can work across everything that you need to But I think I'd like to reserve the at X maintenance board for the open edx maintenance just…

Robert Raposa: right

Feanil Patel: because of how complex the permission stuff is.

Robert Raposa: But I forgot about that level problem says, thank you.

Feanil Patel: All right any questions on the 312 stuff? yeah, so regarding my to do and three twelve because they're going to be at you later Jeremy. But because the three two, there's going to be issues created for all of these pull requests. My plan is to rather than create tickets that just point to the issue the pull request that already exists. I'm just going to pull the pull request onto the board once they exist so that they're all in one place and people can see what's left to do just to save us some paperwork of having a ticket that points to a polar Quest and a screwing up something and in between those things for larger. Repose like edex platform and some of the services it might make sense to have a ticket because we might need multiple pull requests to get everything over the line, but for the libraries and stuff where it's just like

Feanil Patel: I said, a known set of changes for any given python Library. It didn't make sense to have a ticket that would be equivalent to the pull request. So if you guys see any issues with that or concerns, let me know.

Feanil Patel: We may change that process in the future once there's more maintenance and they need a ticket to remind them to do the plural quest in the first place. But I figure if we can generating the pull request in the first place as the issue that we use to track things that simplifies everybody's workflow because then it's just more pull request reviews for the maintenance.

Feanil Patel: right next is seeking maintenance. So I put the first set of repos up for seeking maintenance in this course. The link is here in the meeting notes a couple of them to you already picked up because they were already thinking about picking them up, but I haven't heard anything for the rest. So I think I know that you guys have been sending me sort of your lists, but also take a look at that list of items and For context the things I picked are things sort of that need urgent maintenance or that are part of the open edx release already and don't have a known maintenance and nobody has stepped up yet. So please take a look at that list. It's a bunch of mfe's that that are part of the open edx release today, but don't have a maintainer. So

00:25:00

Feanil Patel: and CS comment service, which if anybody has a ruby shop under their belt somewhere and wants to help upgrade the Ruby version, which I don't think will be complicated but it is not in the default wheelhouse of open edx, so If there are people out there who've done Ruby things and either want to just help with that upgrade or want to take on maintainership long term. Please reach out on that discourse thread. yagnesh before

Yagnesh nayi: I joined in the meeting right now because I want to contribute as a maintenance. And I also spoke with Xavier some days ago.

Feanil Patel: okay.

Yagnesh nayi: To discuss these things and he suggested me to join maintenance working group, so I currently joined.

Feanil Patel: Okay, that sounds great. Yeah, I think if you're seeking to be a maintainer, I know you've done a bunch of deprecation work already that you've helped out with if you take a look at I'm gonna put this link in here again as well.

Feanil Patel: And if there's anything that looks like it's the right scale and size. I think you're not a cc So I think We want to go through that process before you could take on maintenance ship.

Yagnesh nayi: Yeah.

Feanil Patel: But if there's a repo that you feel like is the right one that is the right size and shape for you to take a look at that and let's definitely talk about it more and then maybe we can sort of use your existing Dapper work to get a cc nomination up.

Yagnesh nayi: Yeah.

Feanil Patel: cool Alright, I think for the process for code that should be a plug-in. We'll leave that till next time so that you can also be a part of that conversation related Adolfo. Do you I think I posted this and I was curious about this yesterday. And so I think I asked you about it. I don't know if you got a chance to look at it yet, which was The current state of the front end plugin work and sort of I know we had started with a couple of different experiments and…

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah.

Feanil Patel: how close are we to deciding on an official?

Adolfo Brandes: I guess the short answer is we're closer than we were before we haven't decided yet. this is now squarely on Brian Smith's split the whole ability thing and…

Feanil Patel: Okay.

Feanil Patel: Okay.

Adolfo Brandes: part of the reason is because I wasn't able to actually push it forward as fast as we probably should so I'm expecting this to pick up pace going forward. I know Felipe has an implementation already in production. Which is a great sign in front of communications. Kelly's team via Jason Wesson already has a very good and the defensible implementation in the front-end plugin framework Repository.

Adolfo Brandes: And finally, there's a Braden's to front end up course authoring. So we have good examples of how to do plugins. The next step is going to be to not necessarily pick one, but to pick an evolution of these that we'll call V1. And implemented either in one of the existing places or new place, right and it could be for example in the header as we discussed Esther during our meeting.

Feanil Patel: It right. cool

Adolfo Brandes: But that's the current state of things Felipe.

Felipe Montoya: Yeah, I'm gonna say this a second implementation of the same Concepts that Braden was doing so we took a different MV and we used to save approach. so

Adolfo Brandes: yeah, and it went through a serious review process, so Are some refactoring so it's a very good.

Felipe Montoya: Yeah.

Adolfo Brandes: I guess V 0.5 if we want to call it that.

Felipe Montoya: Yeah, but it's the same concept basically,…

Adolfo Brandes: But it's this.

Felipe Montoya: so it's not. technically

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah exact.

Feanil Patel: Alright, it sounds like maybe the version that Felipe you guys are currently working through is perhaps it's like Braden plus improvements based on actual real-world implementation and what problems you're ran into.

00:30:00

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah, yeah exactly.

Feanil Patel: He worked to make the Dream League. Yeah.

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah. also Jason via the front-end plugin framework repository is A pickup on that concept but it hasn't been reviewed by Braden yet. But it's looking like we're gonna be using that concept going forward with some bells and…

Feanil Patel: Okay.

Adolfo Brandes: whistles probably to serve more use cases in particular the iframe use case. Which is interesting to you?

Feanil Patel: Okay, so it sounds like Brian Smith will hopefully go through those making evaluation and convert that to an lap.

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah, that's probably what's going to happen or an ADR or a PR that actually implements what we're going to call V1 somewhere. So

Feanil Patel: yeah, I'm Pro implementation, but I'm very Pro ADR our oep to capture all of this

Adolfo Brandes: I don't know. It's definitely that there should be an ADR. It's just that it might not be the first thing that comes out of his work.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that makes sense.

Adolfo Brandes: because one of the things where hoping might be possible is to have the V1 implemented somewhere by Redwood red, which would be awesome because then it gives people time…

Feanil Patel: 

Adolfo Brandes: until the next release to Writes are plugins, right or their PRS to introduce slots or whatever.

Feanil Patel: Something. Okay. That sounds Cool. Yeah, we can sort of continue that conversation. But I just wanted to get an understanding of where that stuff is because I think that Is an important sort of long-term maintenance capability because if there's Lester the platform…

Adolfo Brandes: totally

Feanil Patel: then we don't have to maintain it in the core.

Adolfo Brandes: I'd go as far as calling it critical right now.

Feanil Patel: Really? Yeah,…

Feanil Patel: I want to make sure yeah.

Adolfo Brandes: We should have that.

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah have that as soon as possible.

Feanil Patel: Okay awesome.

Feanil Patel: All right, so it sounds like I should keep bothering Brian Smith until he's done with it. Yeah. Cool,…

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah, and myself it's fine.

Feanil Patel: anything else anybody wants to cover today?

Feanil Patel: No, cool. Let's give you guys 20 minutes back.

Felipe Montoya: I mean just one question about So we have the maintenance and…

Feanil Patel: Yeah, what's up?

Felipe Montoya: we are giving CCS the option to step up and make decisions of what code goes in the master branches. How does that connect to the broad review process?

Felipe Montoya: when it comes the time when someone Proposes something and the maintenance I'm not showing this should go we don't know or not.

Felipe Montoya: and we got any idea of how ties back into

Feanil Patel: Have an idea experience certain Serena wants to try and yeah, so we're actually like talking a lot about the product review process in the core product working group. And I think that is something that we haven't talked about but I think a shot in the dark is that for user facing changes people pull requests authors should have in the description of their pull requests a link to the product ticket that has the review on it and if it's a user facing change and there isn't a product review ticket then they need to go to the core product working group and get approval and if you're not sure we have a core product working group channel in slack and you can just ask Asynchronously. I don't think you need to wait for a working group meeting to ask that type of question.

Adolfo Brandes: And by the way, user facing is not just learner facing there are different classes of user of our platform including operators. For example So…

Feanil Patel: Yeah.

Adolfo Brandes: if you're introducing new flags that turn on things on and off that might be considered the user facing feature as well.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, I would agree Studio, of course authors our users. If you're course authoring MFE that is going to change how people do their course authoring. that's one of miniser type that we have in the system.

Adolfo Brandes: Yeah.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, when in doubt work product dashboard just drop the pr in there and…

Tim Krones: who is

Feanil Patel: hey does this need product reviewed rather you ask that more frequently than less frequently.

Tim Krones: Serena do you have an update on who is responsible for creating the feature tickets for pull requests that need product review because it used to be Jenna and she would go over the contributions board and look for PRS there, but I don't think that process is still in place.

00:35:00

Feanil Patel: Jenna should not be the only person responsible for creating those tickets. In fact, I think that was a back Port of we have these pull requests already the pull request author or…

Tim Krones: Okay.

Feanil Patel: the product manager who represents that engineer or somebody from that company or honestly a client anybody can make a feature request. Ticket and get it through the product review process and…

Tim Krones: Okay.

Feanil Patel: that should come before the pull request. So I have an idea to Make a product ticket for the product team to discuss. Don't Implement code.

Tim Krones: All Okay makes sense.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, and even we've been sort of debating about ux wireframes. We will give wireframes a glance if they're in the future request ticket, but we won't Fully give you a review until that we know that we want the future in some form. That's kind of like we have ux core contributors, but it's not a good use of their time to provide a full review of your wireframes just for us to say we don't want this feature in the platform.

Tim Krones: Yeah. Yeah. I saw that conversation on the Wiki page.

Feanil Patel: But yeah, if Felipe's team is submitting a new feature. I would expect the feature request to be written by either product manager customer success person Felipe himself, one of the engineers. I mean really could be anybody writing that ticket that doesn't fall to Jenna to look at all the open pull requests and say these new feature requests. she has got a lot on her plate. Yeah.

Feanil Patel: And the other way, I interpreted your question Felipe was that was sort of like for architectural changes that may not change sort of the user facing bits. But that are like, we hate nose tests. Now. We want pi test everything and you're like, but I love those tests and I want to stay there forever. what do we do about that sort of thing. Is that another

Felipe Montoya: It wasn't what I had in mind, but it's also very interesting question. So.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, so for that I think I kind of want to try putting those things through the product roadmap and product planning as well. Obviously, the product core team is not necessarily the right ones to review it. but I think going through that same process and having essentially Architectural Review go through the same way as product review for some of this but Kyle is over here and has raised his hands. Yes.

Feanil Patel: I think today we have adrs for that. Yeah, that's what ADR so I put it through the ADR process and I hear what you're saying finale. Maybe we should have one unified one. But right now today that's right. Yeah and Deckers, I mean what you just said about not using those tests in favor of high tests. That's a Devastation. That's fair. Yeah. So I think using those existing process and just aligning everybody who is a maintainer to be aware of what's getting removed and what's getting added and why one of the things that I think is a gap in our current process is often we will write oeps in particular which are like these things that affect, possibly multiple often all of the repositories and we'll write it and we'll get that approved and we'll get that landed and then

Feanil Patel: people walk away and nobody actually makes sure anything got implemented and that's Gap that I want to fix. I want to make sure that between the oep and the maintenance there's some Channel which is hopefully this working group of hey, we've now agreed on these detailed implementations. Please make sure your repo if it is affected has planned to make these changes over the next quarter or something. yeah, go for it.

Xavier Antoviaque: Yeah on that and to pick that you brought up of the kind of the gray area between project and Technical decision. I think there are quite a few things that fall into that and maybe some that definitely go to ideas and webs but there is also I think a case for looking at technical users of the platform and making project decisions for them and I'm not sure project. Ux style type of decision or process will always be good because sometimes it's like how should we install the software in the first place? what kind of things we put as a configuration variable?

Feanil Patel: Yeah, I think that's And that was kind of the thing. I was thinking of when I was thinking of maybe we should try more of a product review process. because I think that there's things that impact operators and are sort of operator user experience, which is a thing that I think as technical people we care a lot about and there are a lot of different ways of doing it with the wizard versus with config files Etc. And we want to make those decisions, but we want to think about them through more of a ux lens at least a little bit like Who are the people we're aiming for what percentage of our operators need a UI versus need config files and basing some of our decisions on more of those products type questions and then making the technical decision of the implementation on the engineering side of that wall that equation.

00:40:00

Feanil Patel: Adolfo go for it.

Adolfo Brandes: yeah, just want to add one user story to this which is the developer story a developer is a user of the opennetics codebase and…

Feanil Patel: Yeah.

Feanil Patel: Now says that's not important.

Adolfo Brandes: But we're a huge part of driving the sport a project is getting it to be adopted and…

Feanil Patel: Yeah.

Adolfo Brandes: if it's really hard for developers to do anything with it, It's also bad so

Feanil Patel: Yeah, I agree.

Feanil Patel: I don't think that any of the things that we've said so far prevent us from using the product process. I just think that the evaluators in the process should be more technically oriented than some of the product people are and I think it's okay for us to sort of call that out in those tickets. this probably doesn't make sense for a person who is pedagogically trained for product things to look at and it probably should go through some of the CC's that have been around for a longer or some of the operators or doing some quick interviews with multiple operators. And I think for things like where we need interviews and actual real world stories having a product person who's done interviews in the real world is really useful but I think there's gonna need to be sort of more collaboration between the product and the engineering side. Then there is historically been for some of these things which I think will benefit us. Hey,

Feanil Patel: I'm not sure I entirely agreed because the product review process is going to become really confusing if a bunch of different audiences and a bunch of different product reviewers have to be involved to me most of these things should be covered by adrs and deafors and adrs are not typically posted as widely as depers are and maybe that could be the thing that changes we have this ADR. It's a pull request and GitHub. It's a conversation and GitHub and that's all a product ticket is a conversation and GitHub. I agree that there might be some things that really blur the lines like I could see rolls and permissions are a great one where it is very technically very developer experience oriented because how we do roles and permissions is really good and change how we write the code and what it enables is really product focus and I think for features like that that bridge both types of audiences a product ticket makes sense, but for a refactoring change or

Feanil Patel: I've gonna make tutor do this so that the plugin system is easier. I think that's an ADR and maybe we create a section on the forums just like we have a section for depper. Maybe we create an ADR section. We have people post there. So they're more widely seen because I know I miss a lot of adrs because they're just in repos. I'm not following. but I think rather than try and make it on more unclear where you should post things. I'd like most developer.

Feanil Patel: To use the path of adrs and Deckers that we've been using that I think are already a little confusing but also already working pretty well. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think that I disagree with any of that. if you think something does deserve product review, don't be shy about asking for it. Yeah, I think that asking is the best step like go to the product Dash core slack room and ask us questions. We want your questions and you can also ask me because I kind of straddle both lines between product and Dev maybe happy to have a conversation with you. But I really want to avoid us introducing a fourth path that makes everything yet more confusing on how to communicate changes the things you're developing. Right? Yeah, and if anybody has ideas about how to make our three paths into one path, I am all ears, although it's actually think you're really good path is writing an ADR and then having somebody else or a group of people tell you hey, this should be

Feanil Patel: or hey, this should be an oep because that's like for the translations thing Carlos started writing an ADR and we were actually looking at this we should actually make this an oep and I think that was 80 hours are later lift than the other two are And I think we should stop saying that laps are Light Lift. They're easy. You don't need to write 17 paragraphs. You need to write three paragraphs and they're just as easy. So that's Are a bit of a heavier lift just in terms of how many thumbs up you need? For an ADR you often are scoping to one or a handful of repos. Yeah, so the number of thumbs up or maybe just the maintenance of those repos. Whereas oaps affect the whole project. and deffer's affect the whole project. No, so there's a little bit more input that's needed. Absolutely my car contributor. Oep took me.

00:45:00

Feanil Patel: four hours to write and then Xavier and I went back and forth for two weeks and then the community went back and forth for two months. Yeah, I mean and I think that the core metric in my mind is less about sort of the difficulty of writing it and more about who the audience is really important and if your thing affects lots of people writing it as an edx platform API ADR is not necessarily the right. Option that's fair. That's fair. And I said heavier lift not harder to write and that is really around the consensus there. Sorry is an Xavier's out of sand before.

Xavier Antoviaque: all job Just you eggs our project and…

Feanil Patel: right

Xavier Antoviaque: Etc. that's something that you contradict invent that and I think a lot of the core issues, especially with adoption of the platform are by the bit to the fact that a lot of the times we took really technical complicated decisions that make it really hard for people to access it. if you compare I don't know it's not comparable but installing a WordPress with an open edx, there is a world between those two and I think it's the type of world you get from having project involved. Even if it's a technical form of projects. I think we would really benefit from more of that.

Feanil Patel: Yeah. Yeah, I think people just need to get their ideas out as soon as they have them and as wide of a fashion as possible and if that's just writing up a gist or a Google doc and sending it to a chat room and saying hey, what do you guys think of this? I think it can be the case where we're so worried about where to put something that we sit on our ideas or we start doing it because before if you literally just write a document send it to a couple chat rooms and get some feedback or on what it seems like and where people think it should live. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right and getting the conversation out. There is much more valuable than figuring out which rst file to put it in. I agree with both of you, but I do think that this

Feanil Patel: that people will still be asked to put their decision in a bunch of different places. And because they want to do the right thing. They will take the time to do that or they will run out of time and have to drop the decision. So I think that we do have to think about how much we're asking people to write because there's a maximum that they're willing and able to do. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm not excited about the processes we have as the answer but I haven't yet thought of a better one that would help. These things all right. awesome discussion

Feanil Patel: Yeah, and silly thing that I kind of would like to see more of is people like giving lightning talks but not at the conference but rather at your desk in front of a camera that's recorded and I'm happy to put that on the open edx YouTube channel because sometimes it's just easier to say words about what you've developed then figure out how to write the exact correct documentation and that can be really valuable for somebody trying to come up to speed on your system. So I mean consider that to I know for some people that's a heavy lift, but I think for others just literally talking for five to ten minutes is a lot easier than trying to figure out our web of rst files.

Adolfo Brandes: Let me take the opportunity to plug the new format of the front and working group meeting where we expect exactly that kind of thing. if you want to talk about something you want to pitch the community. You need to write anything. Just Say so and we'll set up one of the meetings for you to expose what you think is a good way for.

00:50:00

Feanil Patel: Let's Absolutely. Love it. Yeah, and this is I think a great forum for that sort of conversation as well. Hopefully for things relating to our upgrades and maintenance and long-term health. But I suspect that that will cause it to straddle a bunch of these other working groups in some way. Which will be a fun thing to figure out as we go.

Feanil Patel: All three minutes left now. I'm actually gonna definitely let you go. If you have new topics, I will make a new meeting event for next week and you can add them there. Thanks, everybody stick around if you want to talk about edx platform with me and Kyle.

Feanil Patel: I don't know if there's much updates there, but it'll be recorded so you can also catch up on it afterwards. It's just gonna be at the end of the same video recording.

Feanil Patel: All right. Thanks everybody.

Xavier Antoviaque: And actually for the expatform if all living so is that going to be exclusively between edxon to you or is it worth that we dig a little bit to see what's interesting for us to because I don't think Brian has done that yet.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, yeah, it's definitely not just using to you. I think we wanted to start the conversation with them to mostly understand what their current expectations slash commitments are in that space and in kind of the same fashion of I think eventually this spreadsheet that I have is going to need an edx platform tab that kind of separates that a platform into some groupings and figure out who can help support all of those in the CC's will be involved more on it's honestly more conversation between me and Kyle and they can be like anybody is welcome to sort of join us, but we're just been thinking about how

Feanil Patel: To go a little bit deeper, I think on the Sort of architecture of platform and what the maintenance work is that we need to do to sort of move that forward. So yeah, you guys are welcome to stay. I think we're still kind of figuring out the format and still figuring out sort of how to sort of weave all of the different concerns in so input is welcome.

Xavier Antoviaque: Worries about that. Yeah, especially because that would probably be more a discussion for Brian but it's just to know if that's useful for us to giving put on that in those area. the part might be interested or not.

Feanil Patel: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so I think that right now we're mostly focused on the Python upgrade so it's pretty tactical. It's just Packs them into you happen to be the most involved in that. Of course, we'll tell you take help from anyone but it's pretty tactical right now. Right next up will be dividing maintenance of the platform between different core contributors And looking at that technical architecture that Daniel was talking about and…

Xavier Antoviaque: Okay.

Feanil Patel: I think at that point it would be really valuable to have other input from other community providers. But I think that will be after the Redwood cut.

Xavier Antoviaque: All right, okay.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, and I've been taking the notes in the same Doc and I've been sort of just extending this recording so that people can have access to it also. So if you Sort of want to are curious to drop into it, but don't want to stay for an hour and a half meeting which is pretty reasonable. You can still see what's going on. Yeah right now,…

Xavier Antoviaque: All right.

Feanil Patel: I think last week we spoke a little bit generically about sort of understanding what to you is doing on the upgrade and a ways. I think it sounds like you've been leading that side of the world away. Is that right?

Awais Qureshi: the hyphenyl Yes,…

Feanil Patel: Hey.

Awais Qureshi: I have started already working with one member. I don't listen. I'm Yeah, so I have all yes.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, can you hear us?

Awais Qureshi: I have already started working on a couple of repos.

Feanil Patel: there's

Awais Qureshi: So you created multiple presentation, so you

Feanil Patel: You see that one more time always.

Awais Qureshi: Hey, yes, I have already started working on multiple PRS and we have created few. And right now we are facing some issues as expected. So we are trying to fix them and we will share those peers on the ticket. I'm not sure my networking.

Feanil Patel: Okay. Awesome. That sounds good.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, I think you're cutting out a little bit for me, but not too. I think I caught all that.

Feanil Patel: So yeah, I think the other thing so I think and are you working with to you on that always or is this just Arby bomb it like providing support at that part wasn't clear to me.

00:55:00

Awais Qureshi: No, no, we are not working with RB bomb. I have one member it…

Feanil Patel: Okay.

Awais Qureshi: who was the ex member of RB bomb so we are working…

Feanil Patel: Got it. Okay.

Awais Qureshi: but we are in coordination with Which repos we are working.

Feanil Patel: Got it. Cool. Yeah. I'm just trying to sort of get a lay of the land so okay. Yeah, that sounds good because I know they're about to do the big Automation bit which I think in the future. Maybe we could just run once across everything instead of having to split the work amongst teams and then have everybody sort of work on squashing and merging things rather than on the creation if it's easy to automate.

Feanil Patel: but I think one of the

Awais Qureshi: But I think it will take some because they have to fix.

Feanil Patel: yeah, so I think one of the things that I was thinking about this past week was the Cadence at which we do some of these upgrades especially for libraries. I feel like instead of getting to the point where we're sort of saying We must do this upgrade for the next release. So let's now make it at the top of the list just being python 311 is out. Please start testing with it within the next quarter or two and kind of even if we're not releasing if you're not running tutor with the newest version having all the testing done sooner. I think that's what Jeremy Bowman used to do.

Feanil Patel: And it must have been just kind of a resource issue that again doing it recent and then doing it recently. I think there's precedent to testing things with newer python versions, even though there isn't a pressing need right and ready to get back to that. Typically, but the days of it. yeah, I think that's right. And so that's I think a thing we can think about more because I feel like the biggest trick with the edx platform upgrade is always getting all of the libraries. upgraded first is right and so If we can get that done sooner than we can sort of when we get to edx platform in the other services. Hopefully have a lot lower lift. are there

Feanil Patel: after now that Django 42 is done. after python 312 are there any pressing python or Django upgrades not for a little while. Honestly, the note upgrade is gonna be the more hairy of the things because we can't even get to 18 and we need to get to 20.

Feanil Patel: there's too much old crust to prevent because I think if we get the 312. Where in really good shape for four years, Yeah, that would be a waste of literal energy. Yeah. Yes the newer python version to that point. Yeah.

Feanil Patel: Okay.

Feanil Patel: Yeah. Go for it always.

Awais Qureshi: Yeah, so final Jeremy used to say that start with packages, but also prior to fix one ID as well smaller one. And try to deploy it and…

Feanil Patel: Yeah.

Awais Qureshi: find all the big issues and problems.

Feanil Patel: Gotcha. Yeah, I think credentials is probably a good idea to Target for that. because it's very widely used and…

Awais Qureshi: Yes.

Feanil Patel: it's like one that's super relevant to the community I did make

Feanil Patel: I did make a ticket with all of the services in it because one of the things I tried to do with this one was I tried to separate the services that we Trying to upgrade from the libraries that we're trying to upgrade and just sort of like because I think it's sometimes I feel like I lose track of which services are completed. Yeah, so I just made two top level tickets on the maintenance board. I just put up. For that to make it a little bit easier on myself. So there's the upgrade Python and then inside that there is libraries and services. One of the things that I have been focusing on here is services that are part of that are tagged for release versus not because I think there's a lot of services that aren't tagged for release.

Feanil Patel: So this is actually just the services that are currently tagged for release and I kind of put them in you in priority order at the Enterprise stuff and xq, which we're trying to deprecate is lower priority and then platform, of course Discovery credentials and notes. I feel like are the top four in my mind right now. That is I completely agree with your priority list there. and then eCommerce worker. I would love to get just because I know we haven't actually finished that deprecation yet. but in terms of platform always I think you made the pull request here and you found some issues already with 311. there it

01:00:00

Awais Qureshi: 9 3.11 But we are trying to point out of it and…

Feanil Patel: yeah.

Awais Qureshi: the tests locally with 3.9 or…

Feanil Patel: Okay,…

Awais Qureshi: 10 or 11 or 12 so that we can fix those.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, I think aim for 12 if you can.

Awais Qureshi: Yes, yes, but I was just trying to run with the 3.9 to see but it failed on first that yeah.

Feanil Patel: I see good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and if you need help sort of say they get into that definitely Post in the ccnx platform and that is probably a good place to coordinate for the edx platform upgrade.

Awais Qureshi: Okay, okay.

Feanil Patel: which made me realize we don't actually have sort of equivalent spaces for other services or libraries or things like the ccnx platform is really great place to find all the people that work on platform. It's true. We do have other CC channels, but they're just used way less because we still have them we do still okay channel. Is doesn't feel like the right movie there. I don't think so. I mean the point of this was not to get People together to discuss things it is to one about merges progressing his deployment, right? So I wonder if WG maintenance is actually the place we should just do this until it gets too noisy and then you can split off where it makes sense. I agree.

Feanil Patel: Okay, that sounds good. Yeah, I don't know if there's a lot more to discuss this time around. I think we're get three 12 out. The door mode is kind of the critical bit. I'm really worried about the notes stuff because it's just like we're still stuck on the 16 upgrade Do you know? The current status of the node upgrade. I know Arby bomb has been trying to remove things from platform to get that upgrade to go through for node 18. Do you know what the state of that is right now?

Awais Qureshi: No, no, I have no idea.

Feanil Patel: that's All right. I'll reach out to Jeremy ristau and see if we can get. more info from those guys,…

Awais Qureshi: Okay asked it up one as well.

Feanil Patel: but if you

Feanil Patel: Yeah, you could ask Harvey bomb as That would be awesome.

Awais Qureshi: someone Okay.

Feanil Patel: 

Feanil Patel: We need to get to.

Awais Qureshi: I will ask it I will.

Feanil Patel: We need to get to 18 for security issues. We need to get to 20 because libraries are already upgrading and not retaining compatibility with 18 got it. But I think we would get to agency. It's 18 that's your regularly. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. But I think the issues they're finding that are preventing them from getting to 18 will if we can clean those up by removing code, which is I think the current goal then we actually would be able to get to 20 a lot more easily. So who is working on removing code in order to speed up the note upgrade right now so I know fed bomb was working on it, but they got cut in half. So I don't know what the current state of that is. That's a thinking open question for. Jeremy and team Yeah.

Feanil Patel: I'm gonna put it to do item.

Feanil Patel: Yeah, follow up almost I'll send a message out after this meeting to figure out what's going on with that. Yeah, I think that's sort of the big worry in my head for platform sort of base reliability and based security is like I want to get that node upgrade. into Redwood

Feanil Patel: So it's annoying that we're aiming for both at the same time. But yeah the node update and the python update or the two things. We could really an x-platform for note 18. Yeah, everything else could get the 20 in right? Yeah. The nice thing is at the service level. We don't have to get all the services to the new version It's the mfe's that are currently coupled in tutor but for the services we can. It's okay. If we haven't gotten all of them. It's just good to get started on the 20th grade.

Feanil Patel: But yeah.

Feanil Patel: so I think once we find out what's going on there, maybe we can help except accelerate that although we'll have to figure out where there are resources to actually help accelerate this because I think I'd much rather have Brian Smith on the plug ability stuff and Adolfo on the Pyro stuff then have either of them working through. This but also we definitely need this. so we'll have to talk with them and figure out if there's front-end CC's that have capacity that could help take this on because this isn't the problem is I think a lot of the front ncc's are mfeccs rather than old Django static assets. Right right people. And so there might be a bit of a learning curve that costs us in the moment. There will absolutely be a learning Korea the edx platform friends. Yeah.

01:05:00

Feanil Patel: I think that's kind of our biggest risk area in the redwood space. I agree.

Feanil Patel: But yeah, I don't think Yeah, and so I'll get a status and figure out what the state is because if they're making progress and just need more time. That's one thing if that's like they're stuck. Then probably I can carve out a small amount of time to at least try to get them unstuck. Yeah.

Feanil Patel: and pull in you and Braden and Dave were all I had to touch this for various reasons. Yeah, I don't think I'm gonna be really helpful as a leader. Yes. Okay, please pull me in. Yeah. I feel like you have sort of the best sense with the rework that you did for the behave lip stuff. So I got a broad view of a lot of stuff. all right. Yeah, I'll make those connections. I'll check in with our Obama and rich town and see what the state of that is. And what is blocking that from landing at the moment. cool But yeah, yeah and in the ways if you find out more from our people, I'm definitely just send that my way so I can understand. What is preventing these things from Landing?

Awais Qureshi: A Felipe is asked this question again.

Feanil Patel: I was saying if you guys figure out from Arby bomb with the current state of the node 16 to 18 upgrade.

Awais Qureshi: Lord

Awais Qureshi: yeah, Okay, I will definitely discuss this with Dimension with you.

Feanil Patel: because because I think that's one of the higher risk areas that I have less visibility and I want to understand if they're blockers there. What we can do to unblock them.

Awais Qureshi: It okay.

Feanil Patel: Is there anything else you want to cover today? I'm all set. Yeah, Oasis there anything else you want to cover today?

Awais Qureshi: Nothing. Thank you.

Feanil Patel: All Yeah, let's call up there. Let's try to figure out what the state of the front end stuff is and I think the backend stuff. Hopefully we'll see a lot more PRS than the next week and we can start trying to get maintainers and cc's to review and land everything.

Awais Qureshi: Looking forward

Feanil Patel: So, alright. have a good night. Always nice. but

Awais Qureshi: Thank you. Good day. Bye.

Meeting ended after 01:08:15 👋